Curse

Seven Flames · Feb 20, 2008, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Mb is great if you don't have any other nuker/friends to help, because it's usage can allow you to spam some skills if you have a high enough energy pool.

but with multiple eles running SF fire builds, a single target will go down quickly and as well that helps your energy upkeep, ie. low energy - GG burning target, or vice versa for a friend.

can take down a "single target" in no time as well as damaging nearby enemies

Randvek · Feb 20, 2008, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Woohoo, Mind Blast. Flare + energy management!

LightningHell · Feb 20, 2008, 10:12 AM // 10:12

The whole point of using an SF elementalist instead of, say, a Water shatterstone one, is because it's reliable AoE damage. If you're using it to kill a single target, you're being horribly inefficient.

Seven Flames · Feb 20, 2008, 10:22 AM // 10:22

i get what you're trying to say, but the AoE of SF still works in that same sense even if used on a singular target. it may be an AoE spell, and using it in the middle of a mob is the ideal use for it, but it works just as well with scattered enemies because the simple fact that the damage is high enough

blue.rellik · Feb 20, 2008, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seven Flames

Mb is great if you don't have any other nuker/friends to help, because it's usage can allow you to spam some skills if you have a high enough energy pool.

but with multiple eles running SF fire builds, a single target will go down quickly and as well that helps your energy upkeep, ie. low energy - GG burning target, or vice versa for a friend.

can take down a "single target" in no time as well as damaging nearby enemies

The problem with SF is what happens when you fight something with more than a loincloth for armour (aka a bunch of dervishs and warrior mobs running towards you with some rangers in the back pounding you) or pretty much most HM areas (Destroyers lol)

LightningHell · Feb 20, 2008, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Very weird. My post got 'posted' quite a bit of time later I pressed submit...

In any case, I'd say yes, you are correct if you want to bring a ton of caster damage dealers. In my opinion, that is not optimal, and bringing melee to deal most of the damage would be more wise.

Quote:

but with multiple eles running SF fire builds, a single target will go down quickly and as well that helps your energy upkeep, ie. low energy - GG burning target, or vice versa for a friend.

can take down a "single target" in no time as well as damaging nearby enemies

The SF ele(s) takes down a target at about the same time, give or take a cast or two, as the targets around it. So no, if it hits a sizeable amount of creeps, it's already AoE - after all, such is the definition in Guild Wars. Usually you'd be pretty good to get 3 creeps consistently in your RIs.

(My actual point is that an SF takes down groups, not individuals, specificially. Doing otherwise is just dumb. Of course it 'takes out a single target'; taking out a mob is taking out a few of these single targets.)

Quote:

i get what you're trying to say, but the AoE of SF still works in that same sense even if used on a singular target. it may be an AoE spell, and using it in the middle of a mob is the ideal use for it, but it works just as well with scattered enemies because the simple fact that the damage is high enough

Okay, so you're actually saying that SF is good even when you're only hitting one foe? I'd have to beg to differ, and I believe I can find plenty of ground for that.

Mouse at Large · Feb 20, 2008, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Not long finished vanquishing all areas (absolutely no Ursan used

), and my observation would be that my preferred MB + MoR worked well. I would agree that if you could guarantee that you could hit 3 or 4 enemies every time, Sf might be preferable, however, no matter how crappy/good the scatter part of the AI is, there will be numerous occasions where you will be hitting a single target, be it a monk standing back or something that's broken through the frontline.

To be able to keep up constant burning, regain energy and fire off utility/AoE or whatever is appropriate worked fine for me

Dr Strangelove · Feb 20, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seven Flames

i get what you're trying to say, but the AoE of SF still works in that same sense even if used on a singular target. it may be an AoE spell, and using it in the middle of a mob is the ideal use for it, but it works just as well with scattered enemies because the simple fact that the damage is high enough

If you want single target damage, roll a physical class, an elementalist can't even hope to keep up there. Your only advantage is for AoE, and given stuff like splinter weapon, scythe AoE, and death blossom, it's a tenuous advantage at best.

However, physical classes can't support the amount of utility that an elementalist can. Maybe, just maybe, it's a good idea to play to your strengths?

Sir Pandra Pierva · Feb 20, 2008, 07:55 PM // 19:55

my problem with sf its way too fragile
you lose Glowing gaze your done
you lose SF your done
you lose fire attune your done

MB on the other hand
lose mb your hurt and energy party is over
lose rodgorts oh well you just dont nuke instead go full support
lose fire attune- woopie you dont really need it

Seven Flames · Feb 20, 2008, 11:52 PM // 23:52

a Lot of good points, but i think in general ya'll are underestimating eles.
i don't know a ton about many of the other professions, but i've played them, and i started with an ele.

and i Have to say, eles and their possible uses are Extremely underestimated.
they have the potential for a Lot of things, it's just no one thinks creatively enough.

but anyway, about the SF v MB thing, i guess i'm just sticking up for a great skill that i've used often and it hasn't really failed me yet.

Tyla · Feb 21, 2008, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Eles are underestimated? :s
Can you explain a little clearer or are you talking about their support skills being underestimated? :/

angmar_nite · Feb 21, 2008, 02:56 AM // 02:56

I think he means fire being used offensively is underestimated. Which is grossly untrue. They do DPS to large mobs, but DPS verse single targets is poor, short of a well snared echoed Savannah heat.

Seven Flames · Feb 21, 2008, 03:00 AM // 03:00

the whole.. underestimated thing, i was pretty much talking about eles in general. but as far as fire goes, well i'm not that great with words so i don't think i'll be able to put up much of an argument on that, unfortunately.

i guess i just resent someone saying like.. "This sucks blah, that sucks..etc."

Tyla · Feb 21, 2008, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Well, SF doesn't suck, but it lacks certain qualities that MB has which can be converted into a balanced build.
Plus it takes alot of energy to pull off.

Ele's are not, under any circumstances underestimated apart from using something but SF in PuG's.

At least, this is my opinion...

Stormlord Alex · Feb 21, 2008, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seven Flames

the whole.. underestimated thing, i was pretty much talking about eles in general. but as far as fire goes, well i'm not that great with words so i don't think i'll be able to put up much of an argument on that, unfortunately.

i guess i just resent someone saying like.. "This sucks blah, that sucks..etc."

I wouldn't say eles are at all underestimated - indeed, most PuGs holler for Fire nukers to blow stuff up.
It's just that some of the (more experienced) people here also see the limitations of eles as main damage dealers, especially in higher-end PvE where armour-respective ele spells get reduced to pitiful amounts - a 30 damage SF isn't just funny, but a reality.

As such, they gravitate towards using physicals to kill stuff - +dmg from attacks ignores armour, and they're more flexible, more disruptive, hardier, and their damage can be buffed out of the wazzoo by weapon spells, Orders, Curses and Smites (a luxury spellcaster damage dealers lose, save a very small number of skills) - so they kill stuff faster overall.

For these kinds of parties, a Mind Blaster is a strong choice because you're not losing all too much already-'meh' damage in return for a lot of support options, to make the team stronger overall.

Seven Flames · Feb 21, 2008, 04:02 AM // 04:02

i understand that, but i would think balancing out the damage and support possibilities would make an even better team rather than almost utterly sacrificing one for the other...

Stormlord Alex · Feb 21, 2008, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seven Flames

i understand that, but i would think balancing out the damage and support possibilities would make an even better team rather than almost utterly sacrificing one for the other...

Which is the point of Mind Blast. Powering out Rodgort's (and maybe Fireball) - essentially the best individual nukes in the game - is plenty of damage. Mind Blast is the ultimate balanced Ele.

Seven Flames · Feb 21, 2008, 04:33 AM // 04:33

plenty of damage? if you say so, maybe over Time, but in the short run.. that's hardly a scratch really.. i don't think an enemy is gonna simply sit there wait for you to spam 2 spells over and over to kill it before retaliating

Stormlord Alex · Feb 21, 2008, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seven Flames

plenty of damage? if you say so, maybe over Time, but in the short run.. that's hardly a scratch really.. i don't think an enemy is gonna simply sit there wait for you to spam 2 spells over and over to kill it before retaliating

My warriors and dervs have already killed them, and the paragon neutered their 'retaliation'. The ele provides support damage as well as support defenses for anything that leaks through.

Seven Flames · Feb 21, 2008, 04:43 AM // 04:43

support?!? lol, i'll admit though, it Is hard to argue about this.. kinda keep forgetting my point